De-hyping Christmas

December 22, 2008

in Excavating

All I wanted for Christmas that year was the fashion show stage on which to perch my Dawn doll.

And I got it. And a ton of other stuff, too. Christmas at my childhood home was always a little out of control, and these days, it’s a veritable orgy (my parents still live in the same house and now have 6 grandchildren).

Which is not necessarily a good thing.

Here’s what I remember about Christmases as a child: making my list, checking it over daily, wondering if I’d asked for the things that would REALLY make me happy, and then…the Christmas day letdown.

My sisters and I would wait on the stairs until all the grownups got their coffee and my dad got the camera set up. It took 5 hours, I swear (or maybe just 15 minutes).

Finally, we’d scramble up the stairs and behold our loot from Santa. There were ooohs and aaaaahs as we discovered our skate board (Sheri), our Big Wheel (Tami), or our set of World Book encyclopediae (me. Yes, my dorkiness goes way back).

Then we’d go on to the wrapped presents. We had a rule that we’d all focus on one person at a time as he/she opened a present. With grandparents, parents, sisters, aunts, uncles and cousins, there was a whole lotta waiting going on.

Eventually we’d have everything opened and settle in for an afternoon of eating and playing with our booty. Wait, I mean trying out our new stuff.

I’d flit between the latest Nancy Drew book and my new spirograph, pick up a random World Book (usually L) and listen to my new groovy radio/pendant. And, of course, put Dawn on her stage and twirl her around.

If I stopped for a moment, I would feel it. And I didn’t want to feel it.

The emptiness.

Every year an awful secret thought would pop up: Is this all?

I’d get everything I wanted, but I never felt sated.

I did not lack for any of the “real” stuff, either. I had plenty of love and attention from my parents. I had the same self-esteem that pre-teen girls tend to have. I did not live in lack.

Still, after such a buildup, Christmas was a letdown. Even then I knew the stuff wasn’t meaningful in the scheme of things.

I want to save my children from the yule malaise I experienced. So I’ve come up with these 5 tried and true methods to avoid the Christmas buildup/letdown.

  1. Hermetically seal children in their TV-less, wireless-less rooms from October 1 until December 26. If the store is out of hermetic sealant, duct tape will do.


  2. Find a hypnotist who will reprogram the kids. Anytime they hear the word “Christmas,” they are to forget about presents and ask Mom if they can do a chore.


  3. Tell the children that the labor unions have gotten to the elves and Christmas is canceled due to the strike. Luckily, underwear and socks are not manufactured by elves.


  4. Explain the new church doctrine: Christmas presents can be purchased only with drachmas. And we’re fresh out.


  5. Bummer about the USDA. All foreign reindeer are prohibited from entry to our country due to the risk of hoof-in-mouth disease. Maybe next year…

What are your thoughts on the Christmas buildup? How do you temper expectations, if indeed you do?

(Originally appeared at Mile High Mamas.)


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{ 44 comments… read them below or add one }

Wordgirl April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I could so see your family here — what a well-written scene…I remember that feeling that something was going to be the thing that changed everything — and i never was…I’ve really wanted — not just for W, but for myself, change Christmas and the Christmas season into a season of service to others — because in the end that is what I really love about this time of year is that there does seem to be that flicker of compassion – the circulating idea that miracles are possible — even if that miracle is just the love of one another — does that make sense?We had a sort of enforced Christmas detente here because W’s mom took him out of town for the entire week — and so it is a quiet X-mas here…but we’ve been stressing that it’s a holiday about love and renewal, and family — not those slidey carpet boot things on Nickelodeon that would not, and I repeat would not work on our hardwood floors.XOXOPam

Reply

Cara April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I am so glad that others are writing / musing / acutally saying something about this in blogland.I felt a little trepidation writing my recent post questioning the holiday in its execution.Maybe I am still just a bit like my old-pre-teen self and needed a smidge of validation. Thanks.

Reply

chicklet April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I feel the same, about Christmas that is. No matter how much fun it can be in “moments”, it’s never all it’s hyped to be. That’s my problem with “forced” holidays – its like Valentine’s. Someone is telling us when we should give gifts and show love, rather than us doing it because we just plain old care and want to.As for how to isolate them from it, I’m not nearly as fun with my ideas as yours;-) but I think having traditions will help. Even if Christmas sucks, they’ll look forward to that annual thing your family does that no other family does.I have lots of ideas on what those traditions should be (none of them predictable) but this comment must stop as it’s way too long.

Reply

Wordgirl April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I could so see your family here — what a well-written scene…I remember that feeling that something was going to be the thing that changed everything — and i never was…I’ve really wanted — not just for W, but for myself, change Christmas and the Christmas season into a season of service to others — because in the end that is what I really love about this time of year is that there does seem to be that flicker of compassion – the circulating idea that miracles are possible — even if that miracle is just the love of one another — does that make sense?We had a sort of enforced Christmas detente here because W’s mom took him out of town for the entire week — and so it is a quiet X-mas here…but we’ve been stressing that it’s a holiday about love and renewal, and family — not those slidey carpet boot things on Nickelodeon that would not, and I repeat would not work on our hardwood floors.XOXOPam

Reply

Cara April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I am so glad that others are writing / musing / acutally saying something about this in blogland.I felt a little trepidation writing my recent post questioning the holiday in its execution.Maybe I am still just a bit like my old-pre-teen self and needed a smidge of validation. Thanks.

Reply

chicklet April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I feel the same, about Christmas that is. No matter how much fun it can be in “moments”, it’s never all it’s hyped to be. That’s my problem with “forced” holidays – its like Valentine’s. Someone is telling us when we should give gifts and show love, rather than us doing it because we just plain old care and want to.As for how to isolate them from it, I’m not nearly as fun with my ideas as yours;-) but I think having traditions will help. Even if Christmas sucks, they’ll look forward to that annual thing your family does that no other family does.I have lots of ideas on what those traditions should be (none of them predictable) but this comment must stop as it’s way too long.

Reply

Deathstar April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Depression and false cheer pretty much feels like Christmas to me, but I’m learning to appreciate love and good cheer. For five years now, all I’ve wanted for Christmas was a **** baby, and since none of the packages underneath my tree seem to be eliciting a squeal, I’ll settle for good old fashioned random kindness. GIVE, GIVE, GIVE to someone else, anyone else. Give a compliment, a sweater to the homeless person on the corner, a footrub, a donation to an animal shelter, coffee card to your neighbour and expect NOTHING in return. Take the whole family out and do service for someone else. Make it a game – how many old people can I make smile today? Lead the way, mum. Your kids might think you’re crazy but it will give them happy thoughts of you forever!

Reply

beagle April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Ah . . . I do not have an answer . . . only questions! My son is too young at this point to register much of it in any form, hyped or otherwise, but I was thinking about this nonetheless.I read those Little House books when I was young and even then I remember wondering what it must be like to be truly excited about an orange or a peppermint stick. We (as a society) have lost the point of it all along the way. And as an agnostic I feel a bit hypocritical for saying even that!But, as for the reality of my this year . . . it’s all about hype and photos and creating a memory this year. And avoiding, errr . . . I mean ‘dealing as best I can’ with my eSIL.Ha!And Ho Ho Ho . . .

Reply

Kristin April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Great post. Your parents sound a lot like mine.

Reply

luna April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

your tried and true methods are hiLArious!

Reply

Kork April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Oh my…don’t get me started!I hate that the only thing you see from the first day of school until December 24th at 11:59pm are commercials touting the latest and greatest toy that you must buy for your children in order to make them happy.I am thankful, now that I’m all grown that Christmas was bound by my parents’ budget being small. We had one big gift, and always clothes, and there were usually a couple of small things, but never did we ever have the let down that something was missing…I chalk it up to the fact that we were just taught at a young age that Christmas was about being given Jesus, and giving to others, not what we were receiving…we helped serve food and contributed to the clothing and toy drives as much as we could, but I always knew that Christmas was not about me…maybe it was being the youngest of 4 kids…I just knew early on I wasn’t the center of the universe…We hold onto our traditions of game-playing, puzzle-building, food-eating, and engage in conversation, sledding, snowball fights, and the like.This year, we are going down the road a piece to one of the Denver-area suburbs to serve at a homeless shelter with all the siblings and the older nieces and nephews. We are spending time snowshoeing, eating, and more eating.I pray that we can teach our children that it isn’t about what they have waiting under the tree…and that my hubby and I can control ourselves as they get older…

Reply

Peeveme April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

What about kids doing something for someone else? Once I was old enough to make or buy gifts for my parents I found the let-down was much less. I was actually more excited to see their reaction to what I got them than I was to see what they got me. OK, I still liked the loot but the act of giving helped me put x-mas into perspective.And yes, I am all for orderly gift opening. One at a time and clean up the paper as you go.

Reply

excavator April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I had the same experience of “Christmas Letdown”. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized that I wasn’t the only one. I’d just thought I was being selfish…or I’d feel that I didn’t deserve the gifts I’d gotten. I think that was the only way I had to characterize the ‘let-down’ feeling.I don’t know if you can inoculate the kids for it in advance, but there is first aid: 1st, be alert for signs of it. Mood fragility, more easily irritated, complaining, just about anything negative might have its roots in that letdown.Chances are if you can catch it early before it’s erupted into major misbehavior that then has garnered lots of disapproval and made it even worse, you can take your kid to some private place and explain to them that it’s normal to feel sad, or angry, or whatever when the presents have all been opened. You can share that you’d felt the same way too.Did your sisters share this, or is this a family phenomenon only you and I share? Or admit to?

Reply

battynurse April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I like your tried and true methods. As a child I never celebrated Christmas because of religious things. I never felt like I was missing out on the presents as I got presents year round. I did feel like I was missing out with the decorations. I’m hoping that if I ever do have children though that I will be able to manage a good balance between an exciting Christmas and not going so over board that they can’t appreciate it all.

Reply

Furrow April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Not there yet with Zo, thank goodness. Our day will come. As a child, I got the whole delayed gratification thing pretty early. I was not one of those who was up at 3 am to open presents. I stayed in bed as long as possible, usually until my brother dragged me out, so that I could savor the anticipation. Traditions that are not about things, I suppose, are part of the answer. And besides, everything in life passes. A wedding day, the birth of a child, even winning the lottery can turn from ecstasy to drudgery, complications, longing. I don’t know what the answer is except to live a life of constant misery so that there are no highs and lows. And that’s no fun.

Reply

Dora April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Wonderful post. So good to hear this from someone who felt they were overindulged on Christmas as a child.

Reply

Martha April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Brillant post, just Wow, it has me longing for a Spirograph and EZ Bake oven. Christmas was a letdown growing up and I got used to it, just became part of the landscape, like tinsel trees. Since I’ve been married w/a family, I see how this has evolved in our boys. I don’t know if we temper expectations, but just acknowledge what the holiday is and isn’t. We are open with our kids that No, you won’t be getting everything on your list, Santa has a budget and so do Mom and Dad. Plus, we talk about the costs of things throughout the year. Our boys have come with me to donate gift baskets to my needy patients and they are learning that being giving is a gift in itself. They also are learning they might be a tad SPOILED, maybe??

Reply

Deathstar April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Depression and false cheer pretty much feels like Christmas to me, but I’m learning to appreciate love and good cheer. For five years now, all I’ve wanted for Christmas was a **** baby, and since none of the packages underneath my tree seem to be eliciting a squeal, I’ll settle for good old fashioned random kindness. GIVE, GIVE, GIVE to someone else, anyone else. Give a compliment, a sweater to the homeless person on the corner, a footrub, a donation to an animal shelter, coffee card to your neighbour and expect NOTHING in return. Take the whole family out and do service for someone else. Make it a game – how many old people can I make smile today? Lead the way, mum. Your kids might think you’re crazy but it will give them happy thoughts of you forever!

Reply

beagle April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Ah . . . I do not have an answer . . . only questions! My son is too young at this point to register much of it in any form, hyped or otherwise, but I was thinking about this nonetheless.I read those Little House books when I was young and even then I remember wondering what it must be like to be truly excited about an orange or a peppermint stick. We (as a society) have lost the point of it all along the way. And as an agnostic I feel a bit hypocritical for saying even that!But, as for the reality of my this year . . . it’s all about hype and photos and creating a memory this year. And avoiding, errr . . . I mean ‘dealing as best I can’ with my eSIL.Ha!And Ho Ho Ho . . .

Reply

Kristin April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Great post. Your parents sound a lot like mine.

Reply

luna April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

your tried and true methods are hiLArious!

Reply

Kork April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Oh my…don’t get me started!I hate that the only thing you see from the first day of school until December 24th at 11:59pm are commercials touting the latest and greatest toy that you must buy for your children in order to make them happy.I am thankful, now that I’m all grown that Christmas was bound by my parents’ budget being small. We had one big gift, and always clothes, and there were usually a couple of small things, but never did we ever have the let down that something was missing…I chalk it up to the fact that we were just taught at a young age that Christmas was about being given Jesus, and giving to others, not what we were receiving…we helped serve food and contributed to the clothing and toy drives as much as we could, but I always knew that Christmas was not about me…maybe it was being the youngest of 4 kids…I just knew early on I wasn’t the center of the universe…We hold onto our traditions of game-playing, puzzle-building, food-eating, and engage in conversation, sledding, snowball fights, and the like.This year, we are going down the road a piece to one of the Denver-area suburbs to serve at a homeless shelter with all the siblings and the older nieces and nephews. We are spending time snowshoeing, eating, and more eating.I pray that we can teach our children that it isn’t about what they have waiting under the tree…and that my hubby and I can control ourselves as they get older…

Reply

Peeveme April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

What about kids doing something for someone else? Once I was old enough to make or buy gifts for my parents I found the let-down was much less. I was actually more excited to see their reaction to what I got them than I was to see what they got me. OK, I still liked the loot but the act of giving helped me put x-mas into perspective.And yes, I am all for orderly gift opening. One at a time and clean up the paper as you go.

Reply

excavator April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I had the same experience of “Christmas Letdown”. It wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized that I wasn’t the only one. I’d just thought I was being selfish…or I’d feel that I didn’t deserve the gifts I’d gotten. I think that was the only way I had to characterize the ‘let-down’ feeling.I don’t know if you can inoculate the kids for it in advance, but there is first aid: 1st, be alert for signs of it. Mood fragility, more easily irritated, complaining, just about anything negative might have its roots in that letdown.Chances are if you can catch it early before it’s erupted into major misbehavior that then has garnered lots of disapproval and made it even worse, you can take your kid to some private place and explain to them that it’s normal to feel sad, or angry, or whatever when the presents have all been opened. You can share that you’d felt the same way too.Did your sisters share this, or is this a family phenomenon only you and I share? Or admit to?

Reply

battynurse April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I like your tried and true methods. As a child I never celebrated Christmas because of religious things. I never felt like I was missing out on the presents as I got presents year round. I did feel like I was missing out with the decorations. I’m hoping that if I ever do have children though that I will be able to manage a good balance between an exciting Christmas and not going so over board that they can’t appreciate it all.

Reply

Furrow April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Not there yet with Zo, thank goodness. Our day will come. As a child, I got the whole delayed gratification thing pretty early. I was not one of those who was up at 3 am to open presents. I stayed in bed as long as possible, usually until my brother dragged me out, so that I could savor the anticipation. Traditions that are not about things, I suppose, are part of the answer. And besides, everything in life passes. A wedding day, the birth of a child, even winning the lottery can turn from ecstasy to drudgery, complications, longing. I don’t know what the answer is except to live a life of constant misery so that there are no highs and lows. And that’s no fun.

Reply

Dora April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Wonderful post. So good to hear this from someone who felt they were overindulged on Christmas as a child.

Reply

Martha April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Brillant post, just Wow, it has me longing for a Spirograph and EZ Bake oven. Christmas was a letdown growing up and I got used to it, just became part of the landscape, like tinsel trees. Since I’ve been married w/a family, I see how this has evolved in our boys. I don’t know if we temper expectations, but just acknowledge what the holiday is and isn’t. We are open with our kids that No, you won’t be getting everything on your list, Santa has a budget and so do Mom and Dad. Plus, we talk about the costs of things throughout the year. Our boys have come with me to donate gift baskets to my needy patients and they are learning that being giving is a gift in itself. They also are learning they might be a tad SPOILED, maybe??

Reply

MrsSpock April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

We were too poor to be spoiled growing up. We were always ashamed because all the kids at school got a million presents and all the latest things. One Christmas (8th grade) I got no presents at all. When I married my husband, I married into financial stability. His mother spends lavishly on Christmas. It boggles my mind to spend 500-1000 an EACH person. It actually embarrasses me to receive these gifts. I already feel rich- I can buy food and pay the mortgage without worrying. I like doing nice things for folks who deserve it (my mother), but all I really could want would be for them to do what they already do, like come down and help Mr S put a new floor on the deck, or fix the wonky back door. I’m not sure how to translate that to our son, who will never know the fear of not having enough food, or needing shoes without holes in them and knowing there is no money to buy them, like I did.Like Lollipop, we don’t celebrate Christmas in this household, so that makes it a bit easier, but we can do nothing to rein in our relatives.

Reply

WiseGuy April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Hi there Lori! Got something for you here…go check it out athttp://ovulationticker.blogspot.com/2008/12/fabulouseus-blogeus-awardeus.html

Reply

nancy April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I used to feel the same about Christmas. My parents would quite often “hide” that “one more” gift. So if they didn’t do that, I’d feel totally let down. And then feel like a heel for it.Now that I’m married to the (very well off) parents of an only child, I’m ridiculously spoiled. To the point where I’m embarrassed for getting SO much stuff. Isn’t it strange I got the total opposite side of things now?

Reply

B April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

How about this for an antidote to the let down of Christmas getting.Visiting friends and singing carols.Making homemade sweets to give as gifts. Finding ways to give that don’t involve a trip to the shops.Making tree decorations. Helping make the brandy sauce.inventing traditions that can be repeated each year.I can see how this might not seem as exciting to a kid as it does to me. But, kids don’t know that what they think will make them happy is not always what makes them happy.I’ve usually enjoyed getting stuff with slightly guilty pleasure. Since Maya died, stuff has left me very very cold. I hate it, unless it was chosen with a lot of love, in which case I don’t care what it is. I spent the day making nougat to give as gifts yesterday. I did it with a food craft friend. It was so much fun. We even managed to invent our recipe with macadamia nuts, honey and rose petals (it was so pretty when we cut it)! Now that has love.

Reply

Lollipop Goldstein April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Well, we obviously don’t have Christmas let down since…um…no Christmas. BUT we also don’t have Chanukkah let down because we don’t celebrate Chanukkah like it’s a Jewish Christmas. But I can say that I feel that way about Purim for ME. There is such a massive let down at the end of the holiday and it’s all about giving. I mean, I’m not receiving anything anymore and it’s never a holiday where a child could request something. Our kids get one gift and one gift only and it’s usually something we knew they’d want. But I feel such an emptiness after the build up. After the designing of the costumes and the creation of the costumes (literally, I take weeks hand sewing them) and the baking and candy making and gift buying and delivery of packages. At the end of the holiday, I cry and cry because it’s over.It hurts to have something fun be over.I guess the only thing I would do is spread out the gifts over the year so that the day isn’t quite so gift-y. That each child gets one present instead of many. But I do love the idea of traditions and family time. And that can also come with a huge letdown when you think about how you won’t have that special time again until the next year.

Reply

PFM April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Hello-I am an adoptive mom who struggled with IF for four years.I recently started a not for profit, Parenthood for Me.org.Our mission is to provide financial and emotional assistance to those starting families through adoption and medical intervention. Please visit my website: http://www.parenthoodforme.org/ Pass the link on.Thank you,Erica Schlaefer

Reply

MrsSpock April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

We were too poor to be spoiled growing up. We were always ashamed because all the kids at school got a million presents and all the latest things. One Christmas (8th grade) I got no presents at all. When I married my husband, I married into financial stability. His mother spends lavishly on Christmas. It boggles my mind to spend 500-1000 an EACH person. It actually embarrasses me to receive these gifts. I already feel rich- I can buy food and pay the mortgage without worrying. I like doing nice things for folks who deserve it (my mother), but all I really could want would be for them to do what they already do, like come down and help Mr S put a new floor on the deck, or fix the wonky back door. I’m not sure how to translate that to our son, who will never know the fear of not having enough food, or needing shoes without holes in them and knowing there is no money to buy them, like I did.Like Lollipop, we don’t celebrate Christmas in this household, so that makes it a bit easier, but we can do nothing to rein in our relatives.

Reply

WiseGuy April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Hi there Lori! Got something for you here…go check it out athttp://ovulationticker.blogspot.com/2008/12/fabulouseus-blogeus-awardeus.html

Reply

nancy April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

I used to feel the same about Christmas. My parents would quite often “hide” that “one more” gift. So if they didn’t do that, I’d feel totally let down. And then feel like a heel for it.Now that I’m married to the (very well off) parents of an only child, I’m ridiculously spoiled. To the point where I’m embarrassed for getting SO much stuff. Isn’t it strange I got the total opposite side of things now?

Reply

B April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

How about this for an antidote to the let down of Christmas getting.Visiting friends and singing carols.Making homemade sweets to give as gifts. Finding ways to give that don’t involve a trip to the shops.Making tree decorations. Helping make the brandy sauce.inventing traditions that can be repeated each year.I can see how this might not seem as exciting to a kid as it does to me. But, kids don’t know that what they think will make them happy is not always what makes them happy.I’ve usually enjoyed getting stuff with slightly guilty pleasure. Since Maya died, stuff has left me very very cold. I hate it, unless it was chosen with a lot of love, in which case I don’t care what it is. I spent the day making nougat to give as gifts yesterday. I did it with a food craft friend. It was so much fun. We even managed to invent our recipe with macadamia nuts, honey and rose petals (it was so pretty when we cut it)! Now that has love.

Reply

Lollipop Goldstein April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Well, we obviously don’t have Christmas let down since…um…no Christmas. BUT we also don’t have Chanukkah let down because we don’t celebrate Chanukkah like it’s a Jewish Christmas. But I can say that I feel that way about Purim for ME. There is such a massive let down at the end of the holiday and it’s all about giving. I mean, I’m not receiving anything anymore and it’s never a holiday where a child could request something. Our kids get one gift and one gift only and it’s usually something we knew they’d want. But I feel such an emptiness after the build up. After the designing of the costumes and the creation of the costumes (literally, I take weeks hand sewing them) and the baking and candy making and gift buying and delivery of packages. At the end of the holiday, I cry and cry because it’s over.It hurts to have something fun be over.I guess the only thing I would do is spread out the gifts over the year so that the day isn’t quite so gift-y. That each child gets one present instead of many. But I do love the idea of traditions and family time. And that can also come with a huge letdown when you think about how you won’t have that special time again until the next year.

Reply

PFM April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

Hello-I am an adoptive mom who struggled with IF for four years.I recently started a not for profit, Parenthood for Me.org.Our mission is to provide financial and emotional assistance to those starting families through adoption and medical intervention. Please visit my website: http://www.parenthoodforme.org/ Pass the link on.Thank you,Erica Schlaefer

Reply

Geohde April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

The older I get the more humbug I am about the whole thing. Sad, but true,J

Reply

Geohde April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

The older I get the more humbug I am about the whole thing. Sad, but true,J

Reply

Geohde April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

The older I get the more humbug I am about the whole thing. Sad, but true,J

Reply

Geohde April 7, 2010 at 1:27 am

The older I get the more humbug I am about the whole thing. Sad, but true,J

Reply

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